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Kinsey

Acquiring Brees' heir: who and how?

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53 minutes ago, Kinsey said:

Not seeing anyone project Mayfield in the top 5. Things change, and he had a good all round combine, so that bumps his stock a little. 

Last year, Pat Mahomes was viewed as 2nd rounder. After the combine, pro days & individual work outs, the talk of Mahomes being a 1st rounder started. Come draft night, Mahomes ends up being a top 10 pick.

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I really believe some don't even realize how close we were taking Pat Mahomes last draft. Had the Chiefs not wanted Mahomes as badly as they did, Mahomes would be a Saint. Buffalo needed a cornerback & would have taken Lattimore at 10. Instead the Chiefs offered some picks. The Bills still ended up with Tre White at #27 & extra picks. KC got Mahomes & Lattimore fell to us.

Payton confirmed Saturday that the Saints would have drafted Lattimore ahead of Mahomes -- but that Mahomes was the next player on their board and they would have taken him at No. 11 if Lattimore had gone 10th instead.

 

Payton acknowledged this is the first time the Saints have come close to drafting a QB that high in his 12 years as Saints coach.

"Listen, we've had discussions about drafting a quarterback maybe 10 picks out, eight picks out -- I can't recall in the first round. So probably in the time I've been here, this would have been the first discussion at 11 or a pick like that that we’ve discussed a quarterback," said Payton, who said that was because of their high grade on Mahomes -- not because of Brees' age.

"Put [Mahomes] in our room and go through the process like we did, we're gonna have a high grade on him three years ago [or any year]. Now, whether you’re willing to invest a first-round pick that early in the process [in past years is unknown]. But we just had a real strong opinion of him, then went and had a private workout with him and went through the process. ...

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/236981/saints-got-their-guy-but-would-have-drafted-patrick-mahomes-ii-if-they-didnt

When the 10th overall pick on the clock with the Buffalo Bills, it was unlikely the Bills would draft a starting QB with the expensive Tyrod Taylor already penciled in as the starter. However, they did need a Cornerback, so they had the option of selecting Ohio State’s Marshon Lattimore with that selection.

Instead, the Bills traded the 10th pick to the Kansas City Chiefs. The Chiefs went on to select Patrick Mahomes II out of Texas Tech as the long-term replacement to Alex Smith (who was traded to the Washington Redskins this offseason to clear the way for Mahomes as the 2018 starter). The Bills then selected their CB with the 27th overall pick in Tre’Davious White out of LSU after the Saints selected Lattimore with the 11th overall pick.

But, had the Chiefs not traded up for the 10th pick, it is likely the Bills select Lattimore with the 10th pick in the first round, leaving the Saints to go after their next best player on the board - Patrick Mahomes.

https://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2018/2/28/17050826/new-orleans-saints-2017-what-could-have-been-patrick-mahomes-to-the-saints-kansas-city-chiefs

The reason Andy Reid and John Dorsey needed to give up two first-round picks and a third-rounder to secure Mahomes is that they believed another team was eyeing the quarterback.

The speculation during the draft was that the New Orleans Saints targeted the big-armed Texas Tech product at No. 11 to be their heir to Drew Brees.

That speculation was confirmed from an odd source on Friday.

Golfer Ryan Palmer was in the Saints' war room on Thursday night, along with fellow golfer Jordan Spieth. Palmer told reporters on Friday the Saints were "really big into Mahomes."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000803944/article/golfer-ryan-palmer-saints-wanted-patrick-mahomes

 

 

 

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Identify an offensive player from the 2018 Combine whose performance/measurables gave you cause for concern. Why?

 

Aaron Larson: Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma

We already knew that Mayfield was undersized, but Mayfield apologists would point to other undersized quarterbacks Drew Brees and Russell Wilson, who have been hugely successful in the NFL. So how did Mayfield stack up with their combine results? Mayfield’s 40 time (4.84) was on par with Brees (4.85) but quite a bit slower than Wilson’s (4.53). His vertical (29”) was far below both Brees (32”) and Wilson (34”). His broad jump (111”) bested Brees (105”) but fell short of Wilson (118”). Finally, his three-cone drill (7.0) bested Brees (7.09) but was slower than Wilson (6.97). His numbers are close to Brees, who was drafted in the second round by the Chargers and didn’t start during his rookie year. That would be an ideal situation for Mayfield, but if he’s drafted high in the first round and made an immediate starter, it could end poorly.

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6 hours ago, herb said:

Identify an offensive player from the 2018 Combine whose performance/measurables gave you cause for concern. Why?

 

Aaron Larson: Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma

We already knew that Mayfield was undersized, but Mayfield apologists would point to other undersized quarterbacks Drew Brees and Russell Wilson, who have been hugely successful in the NFL. So how did Mayfield stack up with their combine results? Mayfield’s 40 time (4.84) was on par with Brees (4.85) but quite a bit slower than Wilson’s (4.53). His vertical (29”) was far below both Brees (32”) and Wilson (34”). His broad jump (111”) bested Brees (105”) but fell short of Wilson (118”). Finally, his three-cone drill (7.0) bested Brees (7.09) but was slower than Wilson (6.97). His numbers are close to Brees, who was drafted in the second round by the Chargers and didn’t start during his rookie year. That would be an ideal situation for Mayfield, but if he’s drafted high in the first round and made an immediate starter, it could end poorly.

sorry, it's been a rough week for me,but I have to insert a joke here. The Houston Oilers had a drill where the RB had to sprint full speed 10 yards backwards. Earl Campbell often tripped and fell during this drill. The RB coach went to Bum Phillips expressing his concern. Bum Said I don't hand the ball off to see him run backwards :) 

 

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1 hour ago, faceman said:

sorry, it's been a rough week for me,but I have to insert a joke here. The Houston Oilers had a drill where the RB had to sprint full speed 10 yards backwards. Earl Campbell often tripped and fell during this drill. The RB coach went to Bum Phillips expressing his concern. Bum Said I don't hand the ball off to see him run backwards :) 

 

Hey - football aside - your WDZ family has your back.  

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12 hours ago, herb said:

Identify an offensive player from the 2018 Combine whose performance/measurables gave you cause for concern. Why?

 

Aaron Larson: Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma

We already knew that Mayfield was undersized, but Mayfield apologists would point to other undersized quarterbacks Drew Brees and Russell Wilson, who have been hugely successful in the NFL. So how did Mayfield stack up with their combine results? Mayfield’s 40 time (4.84) was on par with Brees (4.85) but quite a bit slower than Wilson’s (4.53). His vertical (29”) was far below both Brees (32”) and Wilson (34”). His broad jump (111”) bested Brees (105”) but fell short of Wilson (118”). Finally, his three-cone drill (7.0) bested Brees (7.09) but was slower than Wilson (6.97). His numbers are close to Brees, who was drafted in the second round by the Chargers and didn’t start during his rookie year. That would be an ideal situation for Mayfield, but if he’s drafted high in the first round and made an immediate starter, it could end poorly.

These are meaningless measurables for a QB. Mayfield isn't a CB, RB or WR. Those are positions where the measurables listed above mean everything in terms physical talent. Still in all, his overall numbers are actually pretty good. This is a reach. Also, who the hell is Aaron Larson & why should I value his opinion?

 

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I agree that those measurables don't mean that much when it comes to QB's, especially in Payton's offense. I'm all for going after Mayfield as long as we don't have to trade up into the top 10 to get him. 

Face, hope all is well or at least getting better bro....

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11 hours ago, herb said:

Identify an offensive player from the 2018 Combine whose performance/measurables gave you cause for concern. Why?

 

Aaron Larson: Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma

We already knew that Mayfield was undersized, but Mayfield apologists would point to other undersized quarterbacks Drew Brees and Russell Wilson, who have been hugely successful in the NFL. So how did Mayfield stack up with their combine results? Mayfield’s 40 time (4.84) was on par with Brees (4.85) but quite a bit slower than Wilson’s (4.53). His vertical (29”) was far below both Brees (32”) and Wilson (34”). His broad jump (111”) bested Brees (105”) but fell short of Wilson (118”). Finally, his three-cone drill (7.0) bested Brees (7.09) but was slower than Wilson (6.97). His numbers are close to Brees, who was drafted in the second round by the Chargers and didn’t start during his rookie year. That would be an ideal situation for Mayfield, but if he’s drafted high in the first round and made an immediate starter, it could end poorly.

Don't know who you quoted that from, but based solely upon that paragraph, the person doesn't understand the QB position very well. 

First off, the biggest concerns with height is being able to see the field clearly especially considering the larger size of the linemen in the NFL and being able to have good trajectory so the passes don't get knocked down.  Not one of the drills mention would give any indication of either of those abilities so why use those to compare him to Brees and WIlson who are two totally different style QBs. 

Second, unless they are a pure running QB, 40 times are pointless for a QB; vertical jump although good for those who catch a ball and perhaps shows leg strength for a powerful bust for linemen but very little if anything for a QB; broad jump is another good indication of powerful legs and lower body strength, again not a good indicator of critical functions for a QB; 3-cone I think is the only one that really applies to a QB because of the need to move in the pocket, I think I can live with someone between Brees and WIlson's pocket agility although the 3-cone is not a true indication of that ability.  

Third, the writer is trying to make a connection of drill results of Mayfield and Brees to draft placement, which doesn't happen.  Player personal use the drills to confirm or dispute what they think they see on film not determine how good the player is.  I also don't think a year spent as a backup is the difference between being a good QB or out of the league.  The coaching staff they play under could, but not a year as backup or not.  That just changes the timeline for them IMO.

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That is one mock, and honestly there will be a lot of changes on what people think once free agency gets rolling. There will be some curve balls thrown come draft day too.  

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On 3/6/2018 at 10:23 PM, herb said:

Y'all need to lay off the crack pipe. If "if" was a "skiff", we could all go fishing.

"He could be a hall of famer"..."he'll be starting for 15 years in this league".

He could just as easily be the next Matt Leinart or Brock Osweiler or Ryan Leaf or just as easily be the next star crossed athlete that tragically dies within a year. No one here knows exactly what any player will be and anyone that anoints themselves as a self-proclaimed expert is full of diddly-poo.

History shows us that the success or lack thereof never solely depends on the quarterback prospect himself. The prospect MUST HAVE the physical gifts to succeed along with the character intangibles that have discussed at great lengths in this thread already but it just doesn't end there. 

The environment the prospect is drafted into must be fertile to allow for the proper growth & development otherwise those physical gifts & intangibles will go to waste. Our own team history has provided us with probably the greatest example of this situation going wrong. Would you say that Archie Manning did not have everything you want in a quarterback? Mobility, a cannon for an arm, size & strength. From a physical standpoint, you may not find a better a better physical tools than what Archie had. Archie was also a leader of men. All you have do is hear the stories of how he put his Ole Miss teams on his back & lead them to victory in numerous instances.

With that said even the great Archie Manning couldn't overcome being drafted by an organization that had no sense of direction. The Saints were the epitome of dysfunction, poor coaching & lack of talent during Manning's tenure in New Orleans. The ownership was poor. Coaches clashed with ownership which spilled over onto the practice & playing field. The team had no identity when it came to handling the draft. Players were just selected on talented alone. This lead to a lockeroom culture where drug usage was more important than preparation. Ultimately, the on field results were a direct reflection of what was going on behind the scenes. Mass chaos on Sundays. The organization had no insight scouting wise that character means something.

Now had Manning been on the Vikings, Steelers, Raiders or Cowboys teams in the 1970s his entire career would be viewed totally different right now. Archie would most likely have several Super Bowl titles & a bust in Canton. Instead, he is talked about as a talented QB who played for losing franchise. This just shows that no matter how gifted a QB is, it isn't always about the player himself that determines how he is viewed or how his career turns out. Archie had Hall of Fame talent but was drafted into an organization that lacked the ability to exploit the most out of that talent.

Joe Montana just so happened to get that opportunity. When Montana was drafted in 1979, the 49ers were under going a transformation from perennial losers to a dynasty. For one, they hired the greatest offensive mind the NFL has ever seen in Bill Walsh as head coach. From top to bottom, the organization was filled with personnel who excelled at doing their jobs. Their scouting department became the best in the NFL at that time.

"Sam Wyche was sent to check out Joe as part of the trip to see James Owens.  "Joe was staying with his girlfriend down in Manhattan Beach in Southern California and Owens was at UCLA.  Walsh wanted to know if Owens could catch the ball, so Sam called Joe and asked him to come over and throw passes to him...When Wyche returned to the Bay Area he told Bill that he'd better take a look at this guy Montana.  He just might be the one." 

Dickey mentions that Montana was "the last on his list," but he was somewhat interested in him.  That workout with Owens appeared to change his mind entirely. Walsh was quoted as saying, "I sensed just watching Joe in that workout that he'd be able to [improvise] in time, though he surprised me by how quickly he learned everything."

 

Walsh had the vision to see what Montana could become in the NFL. Walsh also possessed the knowledge, coaching style & offensive design to maximize all of Montana's gifts. All he had to do was put Joe in a position to allow Montana's physical tools & intangibles to be utilized & Montana took care of the rest. It also helped that the 49ers were able to surround Montana with a roster of talented players. Many of them had the same intangibles that Joe had. (Ronnie Lot, Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, Charles Haley, etc) The 49ers made a fertile environment & were able to reap the benefits in a way very few organizations in NFL history had been able do. The results speak for itself. 4 Super Bowl championships with Joe at QB & Montana being a no brainer first ballot Hall of Famer.

Now had Montana been drafted by an organization that lacked structure, had poor coaching, talent deficiencies, (Saints or Falcons) do you honestly believe Montana is a 4 time champion & first ballot Hall of Famer? I don't. He may have been a pretty good QB like Archie but the chances of him being mentioned as the GOAT are slim to none.

It's not simply about a QB prospect that determines whether he succeeds or fails. It's more about where he ends up. Still in all, that prospect has to have talent & a burning desire to be the best at everything while being placed in a situation to maximize every aspect that the prospect brings to the table.

So yes, I feel that Mayfield has all those gifts & intangibles to be great. It's now about him being placed in the right environment to get the most out those gifts. I feel that right now that we have that in place with Sean Payton. The structure of the organization is one of the best in the NFL. Our scouting department has done an outstanding job of filling the roster with great, young talent. 

Basically at this point, if you are doubting what Face & I are hinting at, that's fine. While you question if Mayfield can live up to what is being said about him, truth be told, you are really doubting Sean Payton, the scouting department & organization as a whole. What you are basically saying is that you don't believe Payton can take what Mayfield brings to the table & build off of that by placing him in a situation to maximize all of his gifts. Ray Charles could see that this is a match made in heaven & he was blind & now dead. Now pass me the crack pipe so I can take a hit then pass it to Face afterwards.

On 3/6/2018 at 10:23 PM, herb said:

You make this kind of trade and you are all but guaranteeing that Drew Brees will retire with only a single Super Bowl ring. Instead of building a team that Drew Brees can potentially win one or two championships with, let's screw Brees over and push all of our chips to the center of the table in the hopes that a 22 year old college kid will wind up being a "Royal Flush" for us. 

How is this so? Brees isn't 29, he's 39. I know he said he wanted to play until he is 45 but ultimately that's not his decision to make. I know that sounds harsh but it's the stone cold truth. Father time will determine how much longer he plays. Yet not one person here has even mentioned moving on from Brees right now. The only point that has been talked about is having a legitimate replacement in place for when that time does come. Matter of fact, I have said repeatedly over the last few years that having a young, QB prospect being able to observe Brees in the film room, on the practice field & on game days is something that you can't place a price on. 

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1 hour ago, Bonckers said:

That is one mock, and honestly there will be a lot of changes on what people think once free agency gets rolling. There will be some curve balls thrown come draft day too.  

Exactly. That mock is crap. It has Michigan's Maurice Hurst going #3 to Indy. Hurst was diagnosed with a heart condition at the combine. Sorry but he isn't going at #3 & possibly not in the 1st round at all. They also have Lamar Jackson going to the Jets at #6. Out of all the QB prospects, Jackson is possibly the biggest project of them all. Also, no Bradley Chubb in the top 5. List is pure garbage.

Edited by bigbrod81
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1 hour ago, longsuffrin said:

You’ve been on my mind, face. I hope you find peace.

I'm going to be ok. I just lost my father and 3 close childhood friends in less than a month. it's been rough

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8 hours ago, faceman said:

I'm going to be ok. I just lost my father and 3 close childhood friends in less than a month. it's been rough

Prayers for you man, Thats really rough. G-d should give you comfort.

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