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bigbrod81

QB Prospects

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The biggest thing that concerns me about trading up fora  QB is we are already short capital. We already don't have a nd rounder for the Kamara pick (worth it honestly), and in giving up so much capital it usually hurts the depth of most teams. I don't mind giving up an additional first, but how much is too much? TO be in the late 20's which the earliest we will pick you will have to give up more than 2 1st round picks, and with no 2nd rounder this year what do you give up 3 1st round picks and a 2nd next year? That's a lot for a team who honestly needs O line and D line depth. 

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Has it ever been done, in the history of the NFL, where a team gives up two 1st rounders (possibly will require more) to trade up and get their franchise QB of the future when they still have the HOF, starting QB on the roster?

If you believe the reports, we were hot under the collar to draft Mahomes this past draft.  Yet, even if it's true, that was with our own pick at 11 overall.  The above scenario would be the first time ever that I'm aware of.  The 9ers traded for Steve Young while they still had Montana on the team, but it they didn't give up 1st round draft picks to do so.  With the NFL requirement of having a franchise QB these days, I'm not saying it's out of the question, just breaking new ground.

I also have the thought that, hey, we're an 11 or 12 win team this year.  There's a short window here to make the most out of the legendary greatness of Drew Brees.  As a coach, a GM and a player, I'd want to exhaust the hell out of that trying to get one more Super Bowl ring before I'd start mortgaging our future.  We can mortgage what we need to for a franchise QB after Brees is gone.

Edited by Dru
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On 12/28/2017 at 8:42 PM, Dru said:

I also have the thought that, hey, we're an 11 or 12 win team this year.  There's a short window here to make the most out of the legendary greatness of Drew Brees.  As a coach, a GM and a player, I'd want to exhaust the hell out of that trying to get one more Super Bowl ring before I'd start mortgaging our future.  We can mortgage what we need to for a franchise QB after Brees is gone.

I feel you Dru, I really do but if the team does this they will miss out on a golden opportunity. It's one thing to preach to a young QB the intricate requirements to be a successful QB in the NFL. I believe Payton has proven in his career he is more than capable of doing just that. It's another thing to actually visually see it in person while sharing the film room & practice field with a future Hall of Famer. That in itself is priceless. Maybe I'm just different but I would mortgage the present for the future. I'd much rather continue to contend for the next 15 years than to drop off into an abyss after Brees. This draft is entirely too QB heavy to ignore the position. I would also hate to miss out on the opportunity for the next QB to be able to observe Drew's work ethic & see the small aspects of his preparation habits that has made him an all time great. I posted this video the draft where we took Garrett Grayson but I will post it again. In this interview Aaron Rodgers talks about how beneficial it was to his development just to be able to observe Brett Favre early on. Rodgers even talks about how he has leaned on Drew Brees for advice. 

 

By the way, we will get our first glimpse of Pat Mahomes in KC tomorrow.

Field vision and no-looks: How Patrick Mahomes impressed the Chiefs’ No. 1 defense

Patrick Mahomes will be making his first career start against the Denver Broncos on Sunday, and if you talk to his Chiefs teammates, it doesn’t take long to see that many of them cannot wait to brag about the rookie quarterback’s natural gifts.

Take inside linebacker Derrick Johnson, for instance. Johnson is 35, a 13-year NFL veteran. He’s seen many quarterbacks suit up in red and gold over the years. But in the four months Mahomes has served as the Chiefs’ scout-team quarterback, Johnson has gotten a chance to experience, first-hand, some of the youngster’s special traits as he’s attempted to complete passes against the Chiefs’ first-string defense on a weekly basis.

“He has a great knack for being very accurate in tough situations,” Johnson said. “It’s super rare. I haven’t seen many people like it. You don’t want to brag on a rookie too early, but he’s got something to him that’s different than any other quarterback.”

That comment has less to do with Alex Smith, who Johnson supports 100 percent as Chiefs’ the starter, and more to do with the flashes Mahomes has shown as Smith’s apprentice.

As the scout-team quarterback, Mahomes runs plays the first-string defense knows are coming. He also must try to complete throws, and give the defense a good look, while targeting less experienced players. Such drills are essentially set up for the defense to win and the scout-team quarterback to fail.

Nevertheless, multiple teammates and coaches had the same refrain this week: While Mahomes is still working on his command of the offense and comfort within the pocket — things that will ultimately decide how well he fares against the Broncos on Sunday — he regularly completes throws he shouldn’t be able to against the first-stringers due to his overall talent

“All the time,” Johnson said. “He throws some balls that only the receivers are going to catch.”

“Patrick’s had some, just some ... darts,” defensive coordinator Bob Sutton said. “He’s made some great, great, great throws.

“I tell him all the time, ‘I want you to complete as many passes as you can,’ because that’s the best way these guys can appreciate how tight these windows are and how tight we’ve got to have them if we’re gonna stop them. We’re not looking for the gimme throws; we want to earn (interceptions).”

 

One of the ways Mahomes challenges the first-string defense is with an advanced trick that coaches say only a few quarterbacks in the entire league have in their repertoire — the no-look throw.

Usually, a quarterback’s front shoulder points to where he’s throwing the ball. But Mahomes has a way of throwing defenders off-balance by turning his shoulder where he wants them to go, instead of where he actually wants to throw. He then delivers the ball, with accuracy, without looking at the target.

Crazy.

“He might be scrambling out to the right, for instance, and looking to the right side, and all of a sudden (he throws) a no-look to the left,” offensive coordinator Matt Nagy said. “It’s just natural. It’s not easy to do, and not everybody can do that. (He’s on point) pretty often.”

Even Johnson, the Chiefs’ best coverage linebacker, has fallen victim to this tactic, one also used by star quarterbacks like Green Bay’s Aaron Rodgers and Hall of Famer Brett Favre.

“I’m pretty good at reading the quarterback, but there’s times out there where I’m like trying to bait him, and he’s clearly baiting me,” Johnson said with a hearty laugh. “And I’m like, ‘This isn’t even your offense.’”

“It (ticks me) off,” Johnson added, with another laugh. “He knows exactly what he’s doing. Because right after, he’s laughing.

“He does some things where you say, ‘Wow.’”

In an effort to give the first-string defense the best look possible for upcoming games, Mahomes has had to dial back on such throws. Most of the quarterbacks the Chiefs play can’t replicate the tactic.

It would be a surprise if he didn’t break out one or two on Sunday, though.

“We haven’t seen one recently,” Nagy said. “But he’s got it in his reportoire. We rein him in a little bit once he thinks he does it a little too well, but we have fun with it.”

Add in Mahomes’ impressive field vision, and you get a quarterback that teammates and coaches say can hurt you in multiple ways. When some quarterbacks scramble to the right, defenses know they won’t throw to the left side of the field — most lack the ability to put enough zip on it, deliver it with accuracy or even see who is open over there. That allows defenses to cheat to the side of the field the quarterback is drifting.

The coordinator who faces Mahomes weekly in practice says you can’t do this with the rookie.

http://amp.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article192215154.html

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On 12/27/2017 at 0:42 PM, Bonckers said:

The biggest thing that concerns me about trading up fora  QB is we are already short capital. We already don't have a nd rounder for the Kamara pick (worth it honestly), and in giving up so much capital it usually hurts the depth of most teams. I don't mind giving up an additional first, but how much is too much? TO be in the late 20's which the earliest we will pick you will have to give up more than 2 1st round picks, and with no 2nd rounder this year what do you give up 3 1st round picks and a 2nd next year? That's a lot for a team who honestly needs O line and D line depth. 

A good young franchise QB can mask a lot of holes on a roster. (Russell Wilson) They can also breath life into a team that is/was dead in the water. (Jimmy Garoppolo)

 

 

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If a top QB falls to us like Aaron Rogers did for the Packers, then I am all for selecting that QB in round 1. The Saints may have been hot for Mahones but what they did not do was trade up to get him.

We finally let the draft come to us in the 1st round this past year instead of trading up and look what we got.

Having said that, we still need safety help, ILB help, DE help, and we saw what happened when Lattimore was injured so I'd say a bookend to Lattimore is a need as well.   That is just on the defensive side of the ball.

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2 hours ago, herb said:

If a top QB falls to us like Aaron Rogers did for the Packers, then I am all for selecting that QB in round 1. The Saints may have been hot for Mahones but what they did not do was trade up to get him.

Mahomes stock rose late. Many pre Combine mocks had him as second or third rounder. Personally, I knew he was a first round, top talent. The Saints weren't going to have to move up because they felt he would be there at pick #11. No one saw KC moving up to get him. When it's all said & done, I really don't think they will regret trading up.

We know from the pre draft reports that Payton fell in love with Mahomes. My gut tells me the same thing will happen with Mayfield once Payton begins the evaluation process for the next draft. Mayfield has the physical tools & accuracy that Payton looks for. Most of all, Mayfield is a leader who his teammates follow. The one thing that may seem like a negative, will probably make Payton like Mayfield even more. Mayfield is a fiery, feisty QB. Both Payton & Mayfield share those same characteristics. They both have a chip on their shoulders & have a burning desire to destroy the opponent. 

The truth is Josh Rosen, Josh Allen & Sam Darnold (depending if declares or not) will probably be top 10. Mayfield will go anywhere from 10-20 meaning the cost to trade up to get him will not be as steep. Honestly, the top 3 prospects all have serious flaws. Rosen seems to be the most pro ready but he has a serious ego problem. There is talk that he has not been well liked by his teammates at UCLA. Josh Allen is the most physically gifted QB in this draft yet he is extremely raw. The question with him is does he have the mental make up & ability to be a leader of men? Sam Darnold is a turnover machine. For as gifted as he is, he has issues with fumbles & interceptions. He forces too many throws & his pocket awareness at times is highly questionable. 

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The two downsides to Mayfield are his size, which is similar again to Payton and Brees, and his attitude. Now the later scares me due to Jamies and his cations this year. Jameis was bad in college, but not like he is now. Having to restrained from teammates on the field as a QB over an officials call is ridiculous. Now to have a QB go after a defender who cheap shoted him is different (still bad). Jameis did not do the stuff in college you saw this year with Lattimore and in the Carolina game. I hope Mayfield doesn't worsen like Jameis did in the pros. Also do you pass on a future LT at end of the first for Mayfield knowing the history of Armstead? Something else to ponder. I am all for BPA and if it is a future QB great, but still so many holes on this team even for a future QB to play with let alone for Brees to win another championship with. 

 

 

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Rosen and Darnold have declared and will enter the 2018 draft.

I'm hearing some REALLY negative things about Rosen's attitude and personality.  Like Cade McNown / Ryan Leaf territory.  Major flags about how he'll fit in a NFL locker room and how he'll handle the adversity that comes with playing QB in the NFL. 

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12 hours ago, Dru said:

Rosen and Darnold have declared and will enter the 2018 draft.

I'm hearing some REALLY negative things about Rosen's attitude and personality.  Like Cade McNown / Ryan Leaf territory.  Major flags about how he'll fit in a NFL locker room and how he'll handle the adversity that comes with playing QB in the NFL. 

Yep, Rosen has publicly stated he doesn't want to play for Cleveland. That's a huge red flag Imo. What better way to cement a legacy Than taking a bad team to multiple playoffs during your career.? If I were Cleveland, I'd pass. I want a Qb willing to accept a challenge. Cleveland has a decent O-line and a good run defense. They are not the 76 Bucs who had to build with the draft only and a roster laden with 35 year old castoffs  

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On 12/31/2017 at 11:13 AM, bigbrod81 said:

 

The truth is Josh Rosen, Josh Allen & Sam Darnold (depending if declares or not) will probably be top 10. Mayfield will go anywhere from 10-20 meaning the cost to trade up to get him will not be as steep. Honestly, the top 3 prospects all have serious flaws. Rosen seems to be the most pro ready but he has a serious ego problem. There is talk that he has not been well liked by his teammates at UCLA. Josh Allen is the most physically gifted QB in this draft yet he is extremely raw. The question with him is does he have the mental make up & ability to be a leader of men? Sam Darnold is a turnover machine. For as gifted as he is, he has issues with fumbles & interceptions. He forces too many throws & his pocket awareness at times is highly questionable. 

Just a gut feeling,but I see it playing out like this

1. Sam Darnold Cleveland

2. Josh Rosen- NY Giants

6. Baker Mayfield - NY Jets. 

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28 minutes ago, faceman said:

Just a gut feeling,but I see it playing out like this

1. Sam Darnold Cleveland

2. Josh Rosen- NY Giants

6. Baker Mayfield - NY Jets. 

I could see the Giants or Jets making a serious run at Kirk Cousins....

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24 minutes ago, sfidc2 said:

I could see the Giants or Jets making a serious run at Kirk Cousins....

I'm thinking Denver

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4 hours ago, faceman said:

Yep, Rosen has publicly stated he doesn't want to play for Cleveland. That's a huge red flag Imo. What better way to cement a legacy Than taking a bad team to multiple playoffs during your career.? If I were Cleveland, I'd pass. I want a Qb willing to accept a challenge. Cleveland has a decent O-line and a good run defense. They are not the 76 Bucs who had to build with the draft only and a roster laden with 35 year old castoffs  

No offense, but Eli refused to play for the chargers, and Elway refused to play for the Colts. Just sayin.

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23 minutes ago, Bonckers said:

No offense, but Eli refused to play for the chargers, and Elway refused to play for the Colts. Just sayin.

Elway yes, Eli no. That story is way overblown. Archie simply asked AJ Smith what his plans were for building a O-line to protect the Qb. Smith dodged the question and told the media Eli didn't want to play there. Archie knows better than anyone about drafting a franchise QB and not putting a good line in front of him. 

 

I can also defend Elway to a point. Robert Irsay was the Colts owner. he was filmed being extremely drunk during personal appearences. This was also the time he was holding the city of Baltimore hostage. he had been threatning to move for several years unless the city built him a new stadium. Elway knew that was a toxic situation and used his baseball ability to force a trade.  

Edited by faceman

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How is it different if he says it or his dad does? He forced a trade from the Chargers so I see it as the same. I am not saying I want a player who doesn't want to play for a team. In all honesty Cleveland makes more sense than other teams to me. They invested heavily last off season in their O line, and now have capital for everything else considering they have a decent to good defense. They are a team who could have a quick turnaround done in one off season. They have a lot of cash and TONS of picks. If I were a top prospect they would be my first pick. JMO. 

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8 minutes ago, Bonckers said:

How is it different if he says it or his dad does? He forced a trade from the Chargers so I see it as the same. I am not saying I want a player who doesn't want to play for a team. In all honesty Cleveland makes more sense than other teams to me. They invested heavily last off season in their O line, and now have capital for everything else considering they have a decent to good defense. They are a team who could have a quick turnaround done in one off season. They have a lot of cash and TONS of picks. If I were a top prospect they would be my first pick. JMO. 

Arcchie wanted to discuss long term plans with Smith. According to Archie,Smith was not willing to discuss plans about building a solid O-line. I might be wrong,but I don't see any reason for Archie to lie. AJ Smith was a jerk imo, and relieved of his GM duties a few years later. 

Edited by faceman
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Oh he was a bad GM honestly he walked Brees, Sproles, and countless other players from the team. Not to mention burned down the bridges in the process. 

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16 minutes ago, Bonckers said:

They are a team who could have a quick turnaround done in one off season. 

I don't know what will qualify as a quick turnaround for you Bonck, but if the Browns win more than 5 games next season I will be shocked.  

 

16 minutes ago, Bonckers said:

 If I were a top prospect they would be my first pick. JMO. 

This is just blasphemy.

Edited by Dru
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Why not Dru? Think about it yes they team has been bad, but with a good O line, which I believe their O line is above average, and a decent to good defense. Not to mention a decent RB core why would it be difficult they could be 2 or 3 offensive weapons from dangerous with a good QB?

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1 minute ago, Bonckers said:

Why not Dru? Think about it yes they team has been bad, but with a good O line, which I believe their O line is above average, and a decent to good defense. Not to mention a decent RB core why would it be difficult they could be 2 or 3 offensive weapons from dangerous with a good QB?

They are 1 - 31 over the last two seasons.  Let that sink in.  

What do you define as dangerous?  Making the playoffs?  I'm not saying they can't be improved, even much improved, but your wording is vague so I don't know how to measure what you are calling a turnaround or dangerous or what not.

So far as the Browns being your first choice, the Browns should never be anyone's first choice.  That's where careers go to die.  Now if you want to say you'd rather go there instead of the Jets, or what have you, that's different.  But that's not what you said.

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Ok your right sorry it was vague of the top 10 teams drafting I would say the Browns. Now the Cardinals are a very close second. the big difference to me as a rookie is the O line, and the AFC. I think with being in the AFC the Browns could easily basing off of this year be a wild card team next year. Also think about it, the Steelers are great now, but when Big Ben is done in the near future will they be competitive after that? The ravens haven't been the same lately, and you get the Bengals to face twice a year. That division is closest IMO to be a chance for top seed in the next 5 years fro the Browns. Again JMO though. 

QB needy teams in the top 10 picking:

Jets- no offensive weapons to speak of and not nearly the capital to spend in the off season

Giants- Bad O line, and bad team culture

Only other possibility is maybe the colts who also have a bad o Line and no defense. To me it is clear and cut as Browns best option to be competitive immediately. 

 

Edited by Bonckers

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Not sure how I feel about Mayfield. The Kid has talent, no doubt but his attitude is concerning. Brees will humble this kid and quick. The second tweet is interesting to read about how Brees crushes his competition in house literally and mentally. To be one of the best EVER, you have to have a competitive streak in you and Brees's is hall of fame. I can see how he can break them, his consistency is amazing, the pressure he puts them thru will expose their truest self. 

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