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Mitchell

Every time Browner is on the field........

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That is so true. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't 4 of his holding penalties result in drives that the Giants scored 28 points? If I remember correctly again 3 of the 4 were on 3rd downs. 

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I know he got the linen, but was it really deserved or was it ticky tacky (as well as the other numerous defensive holding calls we got)? I'm watching without sound (and to be honest some broadcasters go out of their way to show video of most penalties and some don't - this team was the latter) so I didn't see a lot of it. I fully admit I am a homer, but it seemed that at least 3, if not 4 of the Giants offensive TD's only happened because the refs kept extending their drives, over and over again yet it never seemed to come our way. Particularly notable - in the 4th Sneed was targeted and when the ball got there dude has a defender on his back, literally, and no penalty. I don't like to be that guy that blames the refs for everything, but it felt...uneven to me. Did anyone else feel the same?

Edited by Haplo
spelling, who'd think?
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Browner's holding is bad, but I do believe the refs are focusing on him.....  he does bring an element of toughness to the defense.   He needs to play a different role on the defense, if we can get Lewis back on the field.  Swan is a good cover guy but suffered another concussion on Sunday.

That being said, Breaux is giving up the TDs....   it seems as though he cannot track the ball in the air.   Geez, last week he fell down twice and kept the Colts in the game and yesterday gave up 3 TDs, 2 on the dame play, plus was called for holding (right or wrong) on a big Defensive play that could have turned the game.   

On in all, the Saints D secondary, including Byrd does not play the ball well.....

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Our secondary has shown flashes of potential, with a healthy Lewis I think we might have something. I'm not ready to give up on Byrd; Think about being in his shoes and trying to decide if you're going to help Browner if he gets outrun, or if you want to help Breaux if he falls down or looses track of the ball, what are you going to do? He's basically left with no choice but to play center field and then hustle once the ball is thrown. With a healthy Lewis not needing help Byrd will be able to pick his targets. 
What made Sharper successful was that we had Greer and Porter able to hold their own in 09, Sharper was able to free roam and that's what makes ball hawking safety's successful.

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The question is how much longer can the continue to put Browner on the field? He is killing our defense, he is single-handedly keeping teams in the game with us, with just adequate play at his CB position we win this game in a blowout.

 

 

Slidell Saint likes this

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The question is how much longer can the continue to put Browner on the field? He is killing our defense, he is single-handedly keeping teams in the game with us, with just adequate play at his CB position we win this game in a blowout.

 

 

Bill Polian had a good take on Browner. The Pats knew his limitations last year, and compensated by giving him help past 7 yards. The saints coaching staff is putting him on a island expecting him to cover the entire field. That's not his strength. 

 

Imo, part of it is poor coaching,but injuries to our Db's is also forcing our hand. Imo again, I believe the former more than the latter. Patrick Robinson is having a great year in SD,but he's playing the slot,not the outside. Roman Harper is a key contributor to the Panthers defense,but he's not required to cover RB's and TE's one on one. Malcom Jenkins is PFW's top rated safety.The Eagles basically have him playing centerfield,and not responsible for single coverage on elite TE's like Greg Williams did during his time here.

Under Spags, Williams,and Ryan, we seem hell bent on putting round pegs in square holes. 

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I hear you face, it seems Ryan's scheme dictates that the CB's have single coverage most of the time. I don't think that is going to change....at some point you would think they would bench Browner as I don't think he is going to become "square"....

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I hear you face, it seems Ryan's scheme dictates that the CB's have single coverage most of the time. I don't think that is going to change....at some point you would think they would bench Browner as I don't think he is going to become "square"....

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. We all know that famous cliche'. Bill Parcells once said a coach should allow the talent to flourish without breaking the foundation of the offense or defense. 

During Paytons time here, we've had great offenses and porous defenses. Ryan is the 4th coordinator. At what point do we start to blame Sean? I'm not saying get rid of Payton,but until he hires a defensive coordinator and allows him to bring in his own staff, I believe it's the heart of the problem. I can't put my finger on it,but something isn't right here. The success of Robinson, Harper,and Jenkins on other staffs show it. 

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The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. We all know that famous cliche'. Bill Parcells once said a coach should allow the talent to flourish without breaking the foundation of the offense or defense. 

During Paytons time here, we've had great offenses and porous defenses. Ryan is the 4th coordinator. At what point do we start to blame Sean? I'm not saying get rid of Payton,but until he hires a defensive coordinator and allows him to bring in his own staff, I believe it's the heart of the problem. I can't put my finger on it,but something isn't right here. The success of Robinson, Harper,and Jenkins on other staffs show it. 

I agree with a lot of your points.  Not giving a new DC an opportunity to hire his own staff, or at least some of his main guys that can teach his scheme, is an issue.  It's true that some players who struggled here have moved on to better defensive coaching staffs and have flourished or, at minimum, held on to a starting job.

Yet, before we start blaming the HC, we realize this is a very common occurrence.  Just look at what's happening in SEA right now with JG and that offense.  There is absolutely no question in my mind that SP and offensive staff can develop offensive talent better than PC and his offensive staff.  The opposite is true for defense, where the Hawks develop defensive talent in a way we only wish we could.  It's very rare that a team or a HC can be so dominant on one side of the ball and also hire a genius coordinator on the other side.

Some of this is built into the system.  If you have truly great success as a coordinator, you're not going to be there for long because you'll get a HC job.  Free Agency makes it so that, if you are very good one on side of the ball, you end up paying a disproportionate amount of the cap to that side of the ball.  Good teams get lower draft slots, etc.  I watched Mike Shanahan go through the exact same thing in Denver where, despite his best efforts, they simply couldn't get that defense up to par with the offense.  Even in their glory years winning consecutive Super Bowls and constantly going to the playoffs, most ardent fans knew that Greg Robinson was an average DC At Best.  Lovie Smith tried his best to get a wonderful OC, got canned, and the Bears still haven't figured it out.  Brian Billick was supposed to be an offensive genius, but they could never get that Ravens offense in gear to go along with that lights out Defense.  We could go on and on.  

Sure, there are a couple of guys who broke the mold, even if temporarily.  Wade Phillips, Norv Turner, come to mind and have, at one time or another, been a tremendous coordinator hire and turned their unit around.  But they also both turned around to be HCs and have bounced around a lot.  There's simply not enough 'genius' coordinators out there for a team to have two of them, one for offense and one for defense.  Not for any serious length of time anyway.

The one truly maddening aspect of this conversation in relation to the Saints and SP era is that they have gone out of their way to draft defensive guys with high draft choices.  Of course the draft is a crap shoot, but they have tried to load up that side of the ball with their higher picks and still our defensive staff can't develop them.  Many of our best defensive players over the last 11 season have come from other teams, not drafted and developed internally.  So, despite my prior explanation, it is very disheartening that this staff has not developed talent.  It adds to the conundrum when you look at Jeff Ireland's first draft and watch those young players growing this season.  So did we suddenly draft good defensive players this year where our previous drafts were wastes?  It's virtually the same exact coaches that are coaching 'em from 2013 to now and Jeff Ireland isn't one of them.  

It all starts and ends with Sean Payton because he's the HC, but I just think this situation is entirely too commonplace.  In a league as competitive as the NFL, where each team is trying to employ the very best coaches, sign / draft the very best players, retain their best and brightest.... there just aren't enough to go around. 

Drew likes this

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Great point Dru, but you are missing one thing at the end... that is all the more reason the league should be looking for or setting up a developmental league to better the coaches, players, and develop what is missing. there should be no reason we cannot develop players like Warner and Delhomme to be competent QB's other than they have no where to go get the reps and get better. 

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that is all the more reason the league should be looking for or setting up a developmental league to better the coaches, players, and develop what is missing. there should be no reason we cannot develop players like Warner and Delhomme to be competent QB's other than they have no where to go get the reps and get better. 

In an ideal world yes...but this is the NFL, the bumbling billionaires boys club, there is no way that they do this unless they can make a buck.... 

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Eh, the developmental league is needed, but it's not missing from my dissertation above.  =)  

Even when we had the European League, there still weren't enough good QBs to go around.

Should the NFL have a developmental league rather than relying upon NCAA football?  Of course I agree with you that they should, and it would be nice to give people a place where they can be groomed and gain experience.  But it won't stop the revolving door you see in the NFL, whether that be for coordinators, HCs, QBs, or what have you.  

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I'll also add the hiring of Jeff Ireland as been a step in the right direction. I don't believe Kikaha would have been drafted under the previous staff. He ran a 4.9 forty at the combine which caused many teams to avoid selecting him with a higher pick. His track record speaks for itself. He has a knack for finding defensive talent that doesn't fit the mold of the typical "athlete" many scouts make the mistake of doing. 

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Baseball has the minor leagues why can't the NFL? When a player gets hurt you rehab him on the minor league team & bring him back when he is healthy. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

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Baseball has the minor leagues why can't the NFL? When a player gets hurt you rehab him on the minor league team & bring him back when he is healthy. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

The NFL can, they just don't want to because a minor league isn't profitable to them.  That's why they got rid of the European League.  Canadian Football and Arena Football are their own leagues and it's their problem to be profitable.  The NFL doesn't want that problem on their plate.  Plus, the NFL is already using the CFL, Arena League and College Football as farm leagues anyway, so the NFL doesn't bother to set up a minor league.

Baseball is completely different animal.  You know A LOT less about a baseball prospect coming out of High School / College than you do a NFL prospect coming into the pros.  MLB really doesn't have much of a choice but to have a minor league system and train the players, test the players against others, etc.

Edited by Dru

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Baseball has the minor leagues why can't the NFL? When a player gets hurt you rehab him on the minor league team & bring him back when he is healthy. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Just piggybacking on what Dru said. Baseball is a world wide sport while pro football is pretty much a USA sport. Baseball also has a 162 game schedule to generate revenue. NFL teams that sell out every home game don't come close to the amount of paying customers a baseball team generates.

The NFL already has the best farm system in NCAA football, why create another when all it would do would be to cut your profit margin? I really can't blame NFL owners in this case. 

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