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hardeeflag

The problem is discipline...

30 posts in this topic

Discipline our defense has none and our offense is soft. Rob Ryan is a players coach he tells these guys that they are great when they are not and while that worked last year it's not working now without veteran leadership and discipline. He encourages guys to make plays when they see them and the result of this is that our entire defense thinks their good and we get no individual improvement. An even bigger problem with this is that guys are constantly out of position because they bite before things develop because they are all trying to individually make a play and be a hero rather than staying on their assignments and playing disciplined football. Our defense has no discipline, and they've been made to believe that they are better than they are.

Our offense is soft, weak, and lacks passion. It's week to week whether or not our offensive line is going to play worth a crap. I think the nice little resort vacation they had in West Virginia that they called training camp was the start of all this. They had a soft training camp and have played soft ever since. Our Wide receivers look weak and get manhandled off the line, they run weak sloppy routes and they apparently no longer practice the fundamentals of catching the ball.

This team is disconnected from the community, just about every single player of the initial post-Katrina era is gone. That feeling of being one with the city and the fans just doesn't hang over the city here the way it used to. Most of the roster now are guys collecting a paycheck not 'Saints'. Real Saints are guys like Scott Fujita who even though they were not greatest players would give 110% on every play and then would walk down the street next week and shake your hand in the quarter. Real Saints went out and built houses, would buy you a beer, were a part of this community and knew what they were playing for. Where are our Saints?!?!

Edited by hardeeflag

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I miss Vilma, Henderson, Stinchcomb, Nicks, Harper, GW3, Moore, Fujita, Shanlee, Aydell and so many more. We didn't have alot of talent but they always gave 110% no matter what. I'm so sad to watch this team. It seems like Pierre, Lofton and Lewis are the only players with fire in their guts.

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Gregg Williams; for all of his faults, bounties, reckless abandon, consistent blitzing, and "dirty pool", got a group of average defenders, to believe and buy into his system with 110%.

I'm not saying that I blame Ryan nor do I know if he's the issue (as some of our current players seem to fully support him), simply that I haven't seen a Saints defense play as aggressive and cohesive as they did under Grilliams. It deteriorated towards the end yes, fundamentals became an issue as suddenly nobody could tackle, and we went from a team of ballhawks to a team of players whom "couldn't catch a cold standing buck naked in the rain". But they played hard.

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I really don't know if it an NFL rule or not but if I was Sean Payton there would be a meeting of ALL players, coaching staff, assistants, trainers, hell even the waterboys would be told they HAD to be there. At this meeting I would say that NO ONE has a starting job from this day forward. You give me 110% & you will play period. The entire team would be benched till the roster would be decided on Friday. If you don't give me 110% come game day.....YOU WILL NOT PLAY THE FOLLOWING WEEK.

I fire needs to be lit under several veteran players on this team that are now drawing the paycheck. If not you will not be playing here much longer. I really don't care WHO the player is. I would rather see players give it their all than be standing out on the field giving up on the play before it is finished. Again just my thought.

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I think reality is beginning to set in player wise with Payton just from the comments in his post game presser. The disappointing comments of his presser have to deal with how he mentions he believes in the process of his program. The thing it seems is that he fails to realize that some of his staff maybe failing to get the message across to the players. Under Payton, his teams have most times, have underachieved defensively especially the defensive line. Sometimes changes just have to be made. Messages begin to go on deaf ears. Motivational tactics get stale. Sometimes a new voice & fresh message is needed. Payton seriously needs to consider shaking up his staff this offseason. In the presser he talks about replacing players because if coaches fail to replace underachieving players then the coaches run the risk of being replaced eventually. Well the sediments should be the same for underachieving assistant coaches.

http://www.neworleanssaints.com/media-center/videos/Sean-Paytons-postgame-presser-vs-Panthers/943ec6de-fda1-4e35-98cd-0bf51d0b84b0

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Yeah, we need discipline, leadership and all that stuff, but our problems run much deeper than that. What we saw today is a Saints team that that needs rebuilding along both lines, at LB, and in the secondary.

This is a bad football team. I mean one of the worst in the NFL. It's time to face reality,.

It's just so hard to evaluate the coaching because this team lacks so much talent on the defensive side of the ball. I think there is talent on the defensive line but everyone's play on the line has been so up & down the entire season.

We must have the worst LB's & secondary in the entire NFL. If another team does, I'd surely like to them. Week in & week out teams take advantage of the lack of speed of Lofton & Hawthorne whether it's in the run or pass game. Pick either one & that are big plays every week that these are responsible for giving up. It's like having 2 DJ Welter's on the field at once.

Outside of Keenan Lewis, it's pick your corner for a completion if you're an opposing QB. Safety play has been atrocious. I know the team has been decimated by injuries at the position but even before the injuries piled up, poor play was prevalent. Vaccaro has been awful. Sophomore slump maybe but his attempts at tackling in space in run support make Roman Harper look like a Hall of Famer. Which is the real Kenny Vaccaro? The rookie we saw last year or the warm body of a player we see this year?

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We've been bad on defense for most of the years since Payton arrived

If anyone can logically look back over Brees' tenure with the Saints, it has truly been wasted for the most part due to poor defensive play. It's going to be depressing to look back at the era of having a Hall of Fame QB & reminisce about the missed opportunities because of it was littered with poor defenses. The Super Bowl win was great, don't get me wrong but no one could honestly say that they didn't expect more title chances after the 2009 season.

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When you look at our defensive roster, there appears to be some talent to work with: Hicks, Jenkins, Gallette, Jordan, Vaccaro, Lewis, and Byrd. I think anyone defensive coordinator could have gotten this kinds of results. Even Rick Venturi. Aren't we ranked dead last in the NFL on defense? We look awful, just awful.

I'm not sure where we rank currently. After the Cincinnati game, I saw the bottom falling out of this team. I stop following the statistics & team rankings. There were just entirely too many holes to overlook. I still don't see how this team won in Pittsburgh last week. It was fools gold. It's why I couldn't even get himself excited about today's game to post any positives about the game this week. Even with the win against the Steelers, the possibility of laying an egg this week was very much there. I thought losing was a possibility but we got taken to the woodshed by a VERY BAD football team.

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Honestly, a blowout loss was the best thing that could have happen to this football team. It left no doubt that changes need to be made. Another win could have given the coach/GM a false impression. At least now they know what they're dealing with.

Yeah, you can tell Payton has come to that realization in his presser when mentions seeing the same mistakes over & over again & then finding players who won't make those mistakes. That was one of the more honest & in depth interviews he has given this season.

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My question is:

How does Bill Johnson constantly come out of dog sh*t smelling like roses?

I have no clue. Could be blackmail. Maybe he has pictures of Sean in a compromising position.

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Gregg's 2009 defense was more talented than this year's defense, imo.

We at least had a secondary that could hold up in man coverage when Williams blitzed. He also had a healthy & still athletic Jon Vilma. We haven't had anything close to that since.

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It's gonna be a long offseason trying to dissect which direction to go in. The draft this season maybe the most important thus far in the Payton era. One bright spot as of late is that Nick Toon is showing signs of life. Our course like clockwork, he left off the field favoring his shoulder after his last catch.

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When players leave and they play better then they have in years, you have to look at the coaching staff. I'm convinced the Saints coach their players to go for the ball on tackling and all that results in is missed tackle. These are NFL players which mean they have talent and you don't get to this level by being as poor on fundamentals that everyone on the defense is. If it was half the guys I would buy in that it is players, but it is pretty much everyone that is a talent issue. If you think it is, why is Malcom Jenkins having a great year for the Eagles and Harper has returned to the hard hitting SS he once was, yet we always complained that our safeties weren't good enough. We have talent, they are just being coached wrong!

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Will Smith and Bobby McCray versus Cam/Junior? I'll take Smith at this point.

Remi and Sed Ellis (2009 version) versus Akiem Hicks and Jenkins/Bunkley? It's a push.

Fujita and Shanle and Vilma versus Hawthorne, Lofton, Junior, and Haralson? I'll take Fujita/Shanle/Vilma and it's not even close.

Tracy Porter and Jabari Greer versus Keenan Lewis and PRob/White? As good as Keenan is again it's not close. Greer and Porter by far for me.

Randall Gay as the dime and Malcolm Jenkins as the third safety versus White/Prob and given all the injuries at safety.. I'll go Blue Gay and Malcolm.

Harper and Sharper versus Vaccaro and Warren? Not even close. Sharper and Harper.

Just my take.

People act like the 2009 defense wasn't very good. They weren't dynamic but they created turnovers and the offense was at its peak under Payton. The offense put SO MUcH PRESSURE on the opponent that the defense could gamble and we were never out of any game i.e. Washington of that year.

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Drew, I'd love to see us get Dennis Allen back.

We've downgraded replacing Kromer, Allen, and Curtis Johnson.

Oh, and Jimmy Graham needs to stop doing commercials and caring about his endzone celebrations and catch passes thrown perfectly to him. He's not elite in my eyes given how often he flat out drops passes.

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He's not elite in my eyes given how often he flat out drops passes.

Jimmy who? Elite players don't disappear for 4 straight games. He's barely been visible the last few weeks.

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Drew, I'd love to see us get Dennis Allen back.

If San Fran gets rid of Harbaugh, I would love to see them bring in a new staff and we could hire Vic Fangio. Of course that could just be the nostalgic memories of the dome patrol talking, however he has been a pretty successful DC since he left.

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If San Fran gets rid of Harbaugh, I would love to see them bring in a new staff and we could hire Vic Fangio. Of course that could just be the nostalgic memories of the dome patrol talking, however he has been a pretty successful DC since he left.

Love Fangio. Mora got fired in Indy over Fangio. I respect the hell out of him for it.

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It's hard for me to evaluate the talent on defense this year. A lot of these players looked great last year. It blows my mind at how much they've regressed.

Some coaches are quick fixes.

What I mean by tbat is they can come in and if there is a decent level of talent thst was playing uninspired previously and you're a great motivator and innovative you can make a quick turnaround and have that unit look stellar almost -- even when they're far from it.

However, eventually the cream will always separate and rise to the top.. and that's when you're left baffled because what happened to make the bottom so quickly fall out from beneath that unit's footing.

Perfect example was Gary Crowton at LSU.. he replaced Jimbo Fisher (won a BCS Title with LSU as OC under Saban and stayed under Miles, Jimbo is the current HC of the defending Champion FSU Seminoles who are undefeated again this year and is considered a QB guru) who ran a pro style offense that lacked creativity and honestly with the talent he had at LSU Jimbo didn't get as much out of it as he should have. The last straw for me was with JaMarcus Russell, Dwayne Bowe, Craig Davis, and a stable of talented tailbacks LSU managed all of two field goals against Auburn.

Those guys were very good to great college players.

Crowton comes in and installs an all new offense that is fun, exciting, a grand departure from the predictable Fisher. He ends up in his first year with Miles winning a BCS Title with Matt Flynn and Ryan Perrilloux at QB.

Then LSU fans watched in horror as the offense fell to the low 90s I want to say out of the 100 or so Division 1A schools. That made no sense, right?

Well, most coaches come in and change the culture but they also implement their system and they start with basics and fundamentals taught in their style. Crowton had a history of doing great the first year at a school and then each year doing massively worse and worse.

I would suggest Gregg Williams is similar to this. Fisher loves him because he's a defensive guy himself and can edit and temper Gregg to get the best out of him. Gregg's very talented, but he's also stubborn, egomaniacal, and predictable regardless of down&distance, situation in the game, and personnel's capabilities. Fisher could simply overrule a blitz that leaves Roman Harper one on one trying to guard Vernon Davis during his best year as a pro. Sean didn't. That blew our second Super Bowl.

Perhaps Rob Ryan is a similar type coach. I'm not sure. I believe it is the players underperforming. Cam has the talent to be a dominant player, but he just isn't. The tools are in the toolbox though. Junior is quickly becoming my least favorite Saint since Kendyl Jacox and his comments I think regarding Katrina? Anyway, Vaccaro is talented, Byrd is as well, Keenan is a stud, I think Rafael and Warren show a ton of promise, Corey White under Dennis Allen I believe could be a perfectly good nickelback. The linebackers are all average to below average. Blows my mind Junior had no stats as a 3-4 linebacker. Not even an assisted tackle.

We've got holes, but we need to determine if Ryan is the solution or part of the problem and then selectively add/remove a few players at critical spots.

A mammoth OL for the offense I think and a scatback akin to Bush/Sproles are all that Drew needs to be lethal week in and week out once more.

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I don't think it is Rob Ryan, I could be wrong but a lot of times we would go in at halftime make adjustments and the defense would get better SF game comes to mind as one. Keep in mind guys that Warren was on a practice squad the week before he started for us. There is not much you can do when youa re signing guys off practice squads to start. Now it is not just injuries. I think we need upgrades everywhere on defense except safety. I want to give Vacarro and Byrd one year to work together. In the first round we can draft any position except QB, OL, WR, RB, and TE. I would be happy with any position not listed that as BPA. WE need help in every other category. One other thing I think that is hurting us is some of the contracts. Look at Denver, New England, and Pittsburgh. For years they use 1st- 4th year RB's. When their contracts are up they either leave or sign low end deals. The Colts did too when Payton was there. We need to do this to help keep up with all future contracts from this year forward. Let Ingram leave, and draft or sign an UDFA RB to save money. We need a lot of help, and some of our contracts will hurt us this year. I do not see a 1 year fix right now.

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In the first round we can draft any position except QB, OL, WR, RB, and TE.

Bonck, why do you think we cannot draft OLine with our 1st round pick?

Edited by Dru

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